Terminated for "making threats" - no evidence given!

I was just terminated from my job for supposedly talking about bringing a gun to work! I have no knowledge of ever having said any such a thing! My employer never told me what exactly I had said or when I had made these comments. I don't know who accused me of saying such a thing - and they refused to tell me. I was basically, tried and convicted and I was never given a chance to defend myself or view any of the "evidence". Something is very wrong here. Do I have any legal recourse? my biggest fear is that this may affect any future employment opportunities. Any advice?

Jonky:

I have no knowledge of ever having said any such a thing!

Maybe the way you worded this is coming across differently than intended, but I am concerned about this statement.  It sounds as though you are not 100 percent sure that you never made any such statement or alluded to bringing a gun to work.  If you did make such a statement, one would think you would remember it.  One would also tend to think that the complaint had to have been recent; employers would take something like this pretty seriously and would likely not dawdle around in taking action or investigating.

Jonky:

Do I have any legal recourse?

The only potential recourse I see would be against the individual who accused you if you truly made nothing even close to such a statement.  However, I don't know how far you would get.  First, you don't know who made the complaint, and I don't believe the former employer can be compelled to tell you.  Secondly, you would need to be certain that you never made a statement like that and be able to pretty much provde it.  It would likely come down to a he said/she said or he said/he said argument (unless the complaining employee had witnesses who confirm they heard this, in which case you would lose.

Jonky:

my biggest fear is that this may affect any future employment opportunities.

It very well could.  If your former employer indicates the threat in a reference, a prospective employer would probably take it seriously.  If it can be proven that you never made a statement about bringing a gun to work and the employer tells others that you did and it prevents you from getting a job, you could have potential cause for defamation.  Again, it is going to come down to proof.

Jonky:

Any advice?

Think long and hard as to whether or not you could have made a statement that could have been interpreted that you were planning to bring a gun to work.  If you made a statement in an attempt to threaten someone, I would suspect you should remember it.  If you made a flippant comment in jest, that would be poor judgement (and the employer still needs to act if interpreted as a threat) and is maybe easier for you to not remember so well.

If it was the latter, it is a good reason to remember to be very careful about what you say in the workplace about your guns.

Do you own guns?

Are you a proponent of gun rights?

Do you routinely get into political discussions about gun rights?

Do you get into those discussions with co-workers? If you do, it's likely that the discussion was misconstrued by someone who is anti-gun, or even not misconstrued and the person was irrationally anti-gun.

There is no Bill of Rights in the workplace.

So you would be wise to avoid discussing guns or gun rights with co-workers.

It sounds like maybe you maybe said something about guns while at work and someone heard you say it?  We can only guess about this though really.

Personally, I never have owned a gun, and do not really care for them.

However,  I totally respect the fact that many people do own guns and they have that right.  It's their right to have them if they want to.

However, not everyone feels that way.  Some people get really very touchy when the word gun is even mentioned.  You maybe just crossed paths with such a person.

I've heard of people calling 911 to report seeing people who are legally openly carrying a gun.  Some people are really sensitive about this stuff.  

I don't think there is much you can do about this.

I agree, it's not at all fair.  

However, unless you had some sort of contract with your employer, or are part of a union, I don't know of any law that protects you from being fired if you are acused of saying you will bring a gun to work.

Jonky:

Do I have any legal recourse?

Not against the (now former) employer based on just what was said here. Most employment is "at will." That means that the employer does not need good cause to fire you. An employer cannot fire you for just any reason, of course. There are some reasons that are illegal under federal and state law. Among the most common wrongful termination reasons are firing you because:

• of your race, religion, sex, national origin, age, disability, or genetic test information under federal law (some states/localities add a few more categories like sexual orientation);
• you make certain kinds of reports about the employer to the government (known as whistleblower protection laws);
• you participate in union organizing activities;
• you filed a bankruptcy petition;
• your pay was garnished by a single creditor or by the IRS; and
• you took time off work to attend jury duty (in most states).

But firing you because some employee complained that you made a comment that sounded like a gun threat is not wrongful termination. Indeed, the employer could fire you for no reason at all. So long as the reason wasn't one of the relatively few things that the law says is illegal, the termination is not wrongful.

An employer takes a risk of liability in keeping an employee who is alleged to have made gun threats; if you later came to work with a gun and killed or wounded people, those victims would sue the employer claiming negligence in retaining you when the employer was on notice of a potential risk. So, from that perspective, the termination here is not that surprising.

If you had a contract with the employer for some specific period of time (e.g. one year, five years, or whatever) and if that contract restricted the employer's ability to fire you to certain specific acts of conduct, then you'd have a breach of contract claim (not wrongful terminaiton) if the reason used here was not one listed in the contract.  Similarly if you are a member of a union with a collective bargaining agreement and the termination violated that agreement, you'd have a breach of contract claim after exhausting any recourse like a grievance that is specified in the agreement.

If it is not true that you made the alleged comment (and it's a little troubling that you don't seem to know if you did) then you'd have a potential defamation claim against the employee who said you did. And if your now former employer repeats that untrue comment to future employers, you may have a good defamation claim against the former employer for that.

I'm not so sure its illegal to take a gun to work--even a concealed gun if one has a proper carry permit. Now the employer may have a clear policy/rule against it, thats different and they could fire you for no stated reason at all.

But I'm not sure if they went so far as to take out ads and used facebook to say "Wm Jones brought a Glock 9 to work" that such is defamation as its not illegal to do so. Since its not illegal any longer to be a Communist they could even call you a Communist .

It may be stupid 101 to bring a gun to work or to even make such comments--and you can be fired as stupid.

Drew:

But I'm not sure if they went so far as to take out ads and used facebook to say "Wm Jones brought a Glock 9 to work" that such is defamation as its not illegal to do so. Since its not illegal any longer to be a Communist they could even call you a Communist .

Drew, you are mixing up two things. Whether it is legal for the employee to carry a gun (e.g. has a concealed gun permit, etc.) isn't really the issue here. The company said that it fired the employee for allegedly making some threat of gun related violence. He likely commits a crime with the threat, and it doesn't matter whether it is legal for him to carry the gun or not. Folks who have a concealed gun permit still cannot legally threaten others with the gun.

Moreover, the employer certainly can fire an employee for either making a threat of using a gun or carrying a gun into work even if the employee is not violating the law by carrying the gun.

Finally, if the employer told others that the employee brought a gun into the workplace when that was untrue, that gives rise to a potential defamation claim whether or not the employee had the right to carry the gun. If carrying a gun was illegal, that might impact the damages available for the defamation, however.

I am not a lawyer, but suggest you do have the ability to force them to tell you who complained and what was the nature of the complaint.

You would have to sue them in court for defamation and subpeona them to testify in court. In other words, if the court orders the ex-employer to testify, then the ex-employer cannot refuse.

Should you wish to persue this course of action, you would have to engage a lawyer and allow that lawyer to guide you through the legal process. That would cost a lot of money, but if you deem it worth it to clear you name, then go for it.

I suggest you search your memory for any comments you might have made in any context about guns with other employees. Anything at all come to mind?

On a related note, I know a guy who was fired for sexual harrassment. What did he do? He asked a co-worker for a date and was refused. After the third request and refusal, the co-worker complained to HR. The guy was fired immediately. One might see it as entirely innocent for a guy to ask a girl out on a date, and to persist if he really likes her. One time would have been OK, but three requests and three refusals were seen as harrassment and against company policy.

Drew:

It may be stupid 101 to bring a gun to work

Nothing stupid about bringing a gun to work (legally, that is).

It's letting others know about it that's stupid.

With all due respect to CuriousinCA, the employer has the absolute right to fire the employee if they believe that he made such a threat, even if they are mistaken. He has no cause of action for defamation or anything else against the employer. The only cause of action he might have is against the individual who made the complaint. So he's not going to have the employer in court under subpoena to testify against anything.

adjuster jack:

Nothing stupid about bringing a gun to work (legally, that is).

Respectfully, there can exist many situations where bringing a gun to work is illegal.  E.g., when I worked for an FAA certified division of a large aerospace company, it definitely would have been illegal under federal statutes.  Local laws also would have made many things illegal.  For example, our facility shared the runway of a noncommercial county airport with a major airplane manufacturer.  It was illegal to have alcohol on the premises - period.  That means even if I never took alcohol into my office, I could still violate the law.  If I went shopping at lunch to prepare for a party and kept it in my vehicle, I would still have violated the law for having it on premises.  One of our best customers was a major airline.  When we went to meetings at their HQ site, beer was often available, and it was legal since that jurisdiction had no law prohibiting it.  Mind you, that was the last state (except I don't know about LA) to pass laws against open containers.

I do believe in gun rights, although I am not particulary passionate about it.  When I was just a little girl, my dad taught me how to shoot rifles .  Target shooting was a shared and cherished hobby.  He used to refer to me as his little "Annie Oakley" (sp?).  I was a tomboy at heart but also quite ladylike; it was the way I was raised.

 He also taught us how to safely clean guns.   My brothers and I also enjoyed squirrel hunting (and it was legal where we lived).  Yet we were also taught at a very young age to not come near my dad's guns without an adult present.  Later on, he taught me how to shoot a pistol -- fond memories.  When he passed, my remaining brother, myself, and other family (aunts, uncles, cousins, etc.) went through his personal belongings since he did not specify the distribution of his collection in his will.  We all agreeably divided up his gun collection - mostly based on special memories.  I chose the old 22 pistol (old, little monetary value, and I haven't used it) based on sentiment.  I do keep it and clean it as appropriate.  If ever needed, I would use it if necessary to protect my family, especially when my hubs is on travel duty.  However, I would never take it into a workplace -- even if legal.

All of that to say, I do believe in Second Amendment rights.  I understand you are passionate about this right based on your posts, your avatar (when those worked) and your signature.  However, there are many situations where carrying a gun is against federal or local law.  There are also many situations where it's plain just darn inappropriate.

cbg:

He has no cause of action for defamation or anything else against the employer. The only cause of action he might have is against the individual who made the complaint.

At least so far, I agree with that. Should the employer repeat the claim about the threat to another person (e.g. a prospective employer), however, the employer may also be liable for defamation. Thus, the employer should take great care in exactly what it chooses to tell prospective employers checking references.

cbg:

So he's not going to have the employer in court under subpoena to testify against anything.

I disagree with the implication that it would be necessary to sue the EMPLOYER to get the employer to testify under subpoena. If the poster sues the employee who made the comment to the employer, the poster could indeed subpoena the employer for a deposition and for testimony in court, too. Not knowing the identity of the employee who made the comment is not an absolute roadblock to doing that, by the way. There are ways to deal with that to get the information needed to reveal that identity.

It's interesting actually, these opinions

I don't actually like guns.

But I get really upset when I see a person given a hard time when they are carrying them legally and given a hard time for doing that!

Or even talking about them?

I  would probably fight to make sure others here in the US could continue their right to carry their gun.

Even though, I hate them and would never think of carrying one myself or even owning one.

If that makes any sense whatsoever?

anyway, just my opinion

superman1:

Or even talking about them?

Speech in the workpace can often get misinterpreted.  To give an example, I had to make many trips to Spain for M&A purposes, including due diligence and many more trips for post-acquisitin integaration.  On one of my last trips there, folks from my division (the acquiring division) as well as some folks from another subdivision (French-based) were there to remediate issues.

A former boss is black.  She was born in the UK and has dual US-UK citizenship.  Many members of this mulit-national team went to dinner one night.  It was just a couple of days after Obama's inaugeration.  We chit-chatted about all sorts of things.   Then the inaugeration came up.  I stated how disppointing it must have been  for many folks who were granted passes to attend, took time off work to do so, and incurred travel expenses for it to get denied because of some of the security issues that happened that historic day.  In this same conversation, I said (stupidly) that one could not pay me enough to attend the event.  There was nothing racial about it.  I am admittedly conservative, and I most often do not agree with Obama's stances and politics.  However, I do think it wonderful that our society has gotten to the historical point that an African-American was elected. (I just wish it would have been someone like Powell who was more aligned with my political opinions).

That boss was offended by my comment because of her race, although my comment in no way was intended to indicate such.  Nothing ever came of it, but it was obvious by her follow-on comment that she was offended and took it as a racial bias.

Jonky:

I have no knowledge of ever having said any such a thing!

Either you said it, or you didn't.  Why don't you have knowledge of having said such a thing at your workplace?

For me, this statement implies that your accuser and former employer were correct in their actions.  Reasonable minded people usually can recall their actions, especially at the workplace.

Considering all of the media attention on unemployment rates in the country, it seems to me, one should be especially careful in all interactions while at work.